Deasbaireachd a' chleachdaiche:Kibi78704

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Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 22:15, 1 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)


Fàilte an seo![deasaich]

Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 23:32, 1 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Feumaidh tu obair an seo! 'S urrainn dhut ionnsachadh cuideachd an seo![deasaich]

pretty please Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 02:17, 2 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

LOL. You are right, I could learn here as well. Let me learn a few more tricks on English Wikipedia. I've been making some test templates (that I am not using. See en:Category:Scottish Gaelic template documentation), and working on etymology and adding gen & pl to nouns (See en:ainleag & en:ainleag-mhonaidh) for what I've been learning. . I was trying to link those articles to articles on sister projects, which how I returned here.) Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 22:41, 4 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be Templaidean?[deasaich]

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 23:17, 5 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Of course it should. I think I have been copying a typo. I'll fix it. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 23:20, 5 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Oops my bad: it is Teamplaidean
LOL. OK, I'll switch back. :) I started wondering, because I had copied it off of the maine template page. Thanks for watching my grammar, though! Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 23:32, 5 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
There may be more of this mischief. There was a lot of junk here when I started and I have cleaned up quite a bit, but I am not sure I did everything.
No worries. We will clean it as we find it. I found many problems already that are now fixed. I see why you wanted help, though. :)
THANKS for all the work! Moràn taing as they say.
A few false starts, but I'll get up to speed soon and we can get it all cleaned up. It's fun. It will take time. It will be beautiful.


Yeah, that is a problem for -noun- etc... cànan is masculine. I think it then becomes Faclan a chànain Hawai'i. [1] Might have to find a solution for that at some point, particularly when all these native speakers of Hawai'ian who are also fluent in Gàidhlig descend upon us. I am sure that will be on St. Jutmas when Easter and Christmas fall on the same day and the calves dance on the ice. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 23:08, 7 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

HA! Just before I read this, I removed cànain. Do you think I should I change it to "a chànain Hawai'i" or leave ti at "Hawai'i"?
I really don't know. Suppose we could ask Akerbeltz or so. Again: there is no real urgency unless you want to add a lot of Hawaiian. There is a lot of much lower hanging fruit to be picked methinks.
And no, you should not change cànan Hawai'i to a' chànain Hawai'i as a language name. The latter is the genitive of the former and means of the Hawaiian language and would only be appropriate after faclan ainmear etc.
I am saving up all of the untranslated names to give Akerbeltz or ThisIsSusanBell at one time. I somehow inadvertently offended Akerbeltz many years ago, and don't want to bother him more than necessary. Minimal, business-like communication may be best for a while.
BTW - I created a huge spreadsheet with all things Cànain. Is there a place that I can upload it until I can create a huge sortable, collapsible table? It seems like something to share.

changing the english show /hide on the collapsibles[deasaich]

As far as I understand the MediaWiki:Common.js

lines 65 and 66 should be changed from

var collapseCaption = "hide";
var expandCaption = "show";
var collapseCaption = "dùin";
var expandCaption = "fosgail";

but I do not have permission here. How do we go about getting that done? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 03:09, 9 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

I was going to ask have asked Sionnach 1) how to localize (translate) this sight, and 2) to tell me who is our admin. I have not gotten around to it. :) The admin could either 1) fix it, or 2) give one or both of us permissions to change that file. It is possible that Sionnach has admin credentials on this site, too.
On the English Wikipedia/Wictionary, there is a way to ask for help by inserting a {{help me}} teamplaid on your talk page along with the description of the problem. I'm not sure how to do that here (yet).
There is also another possibility: there may already be a Gaelic version of that wiki table class (code) which would already have the proper labels. My Gaelic is not good enough to read the help files here yet.
Best coding practice is to put all of the user-facing (user interface, or UI) text into an external file so that the UI can be translated while leaving the code alone. I found {{All system messages}} this other day. I believe that template is used to translate many of the system messages and labels. Unfortunately, it sounds as if that JavaScript file (MediaWiki:Common.js) has embedded an UI. Very annoying, but not hopeless.
Did this help at all? I hope so.
Non-sequitur 1: I woke up this morning understanding why I am having SO many problems with Gaelic (Latin, Greek, Hebrew et cetera) declensions. I'm very embarrassed to say that I believe that it is because English no longer declines nouns. I just don't recognise them (yet/still). It seems to me that they are similar to colors to a blind woman, or tones to westerners. I cannot hear tones in my friend's mother's Thai. That does not mean I cannot learn them, but just that it is a struggle for me. Thanks for your patience.
Another non-sequitur: it is oddly pleasing to me that you, a Dutch chemist, and I, an American software engineer, are working on a Scottish Gaelic online dictionary. I love the internet. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:33, 9 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Wow. busy, busy aren't you?[deasaich]

I am afraid I am pretty much swamped with work for the moment and I don't think I can do much here for now. Tha mi duilich... Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 00:29, 10 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

No worries. Life and employment trump Uiclair. I hope things at work are good, perhaps just hectic.
My friend is arriving tomorrow for a couple of weeks of seminars, and I may be too busy for Uiclair until she leaves. Also, the Beekeepers' Association needs attention: we are setting up a mentor program, and I also need to write the minutes to the last meeting.
I am doing easy stuff on Uiclair: formatting and template work, so it goes quickly. I wanted to tidy up before my friend arrived. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 00:38, 10 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation template[deasaich]

I think we now have three templates for the pronunciation header. template:-fuaimneachadh-, template:-phon- and template:-pronn-. Maybe consolidate on -phon-? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 00:44, 11 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Do/use what you think is best, and let me know so that I may use the same teamplaid(ean); I think we should standardize on what ever makes the most sense. I am seeing articles that don't use any of the teamplaidean.
I just have been trying to categorize the templates to see what we have. Perhaps we could delete or redirect the ones that are redundant or non-functional?
BTW - the "(" and ")" templates under Roinn-seòrsa:Teamplaidean colbh are non-functional. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd)
What would you think about creating a "sample article" using the best practices? An article teamplaid, if you will? We could modify it as we find/make improvements. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 17:29, 11 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)


Ok, so I took your translation table and made a template out of it, but I couldn't help experimenting with it a little. I made it sortable on language family. Not sure what good that does but it's fun. To do so I had to tag the language templates with a family as option and I have only done the main groups of the Indo-European family so far. Have a look on balach, a còig and maighdeann to see what you think. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 07:02, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Wow! I love, Love, LOVE your tables/teamplaid:trans. I think that it is a Linguist's and Etymologist's dream to be able to sort on the family as well as the language and word. I want to use it in Etymology sections. I also like exposing the language code, in case of typos. It looks very easy to use, too. Great job!
My only critique is that the table looks bare in a collapsed state without anything in the title bar. I wonder if it would be overlooked by most users. Maybe put teamplaid:pn or some generic phrase/word in the title bar?
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 16:44, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad you like it! I left the top empty, mostly because I could not decide what to put there that wasn't a repat of the Eadar- heading, but I agree: it needs some click bait ;-).

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 17:19, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

One other thing I noticed. The sort order on Uiclair (what a clever name!) is not working correctly yet. On words beginning with accented letters, like Innis Tìlis, I have been adding data-sort-value code to the table entries:
| data-sort-value="Aldarnaighis" | Teamplaid:??? (Extinct language. I cannot find an ISO 639 ID, yet.)
| data-sort-value="Ard-Ghearmailtis Shean" | Seann-Àrd-Ghearmailtis
| data-sort-value="Ard-Ghearmailtis" | Teamplaid:??? (Language group. Glottolog: high1286, but I cannot find an ISO 639 ID, yet. Ooops - this comment was on the wrong row.)
| data-sort-value="Ioslannais" | Innis Tìlis
| data-sort-value="Uigiurais" | Ùigiurais
| data-sort-value="Urduthais" | Ùrdu
I have not translated the majority of language names in the table into Gaelic, so there may be other names beginning with an accented character, but so far these are all of which I am currently aware.
I was looking into adding a default sort (maybe DEFAULTSORT) to these few teamplaidean, but I have not yet tested whether it would be effective or not. DEFAULTSORT is meant to be used with categories, though; I don't yet know if it works in tables. Probably a better idea to make a global sort order, if possible.
Do you have any ideas or comments about this sort issue?
Also, have any ideas about where to move that huge table sitting in my sandbox?
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 17:25, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Click bait - Clever! I temporarily plugged in {{pn}}, which works on the page name on which the template appears...
No, as I said I only did a limited number of language templates. Actually i wonder if it would not be better to use the ISO 639-5 codes for language families than the full names like Germailteach etc.. That way we could do some hierarchial sorting (say Germanic (gmc) within Indo-European (ine)) without the table getting to be too clumsy. I do not know what to do about Ì Ò either. How do they get alphabetized in Gaidhlig anyway?

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 18:16, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the "goh" documentation. :-) I mistakenly thought there was a later "High German" language - my grandmother was always talking about Low German this and High German that - it looks as if it were a region of various languages rather than "a" language.
Funny you should mention ISO 639-5 codes. For the past several hours I have been scraping ISO 639-3 codes from the SIL site (ISO 639 Code Tables and Retired Code Elements Index) into my spreadsheet in hope of resolving some questions, and have the ISO 639-5 code website (ISO 639-5 codes ordered by Identifier) queued on a browser tab to also incorporate into my spreadsheet. It is becoming a huge list of languages.
I like your idea of using the ISO 639-5 codes for language families, especially if we can do some hierarchical sorting. Let me acquaint myself with the ISO 639-5 codes before I commit to the idea because I am finding the ISO 639-3 codes are not hierarchical, rather they appear to be semi-related to an English name of the language, and sometimes semi-random assignments probably based on time.
As for sorting, I have seen reference to a facility for setting sort order by Wiki, I just don't know where it is or how to modify it -- yet. Ours appears to be a default (English ?) sort order; viz, the accented characters appear after the entire set of non-accented characters. This may actually be the Unicode key order, but I am not yet sure. Sionnach said she (?) was too busy to help much at this point.
I am very pleased and proud of the work we are doing. :-) I don't know about you, but I, myself (I wish English had better emphatics!) am having a great deal of fun with this. I am actually starting to dream about the Uiclair - sorting, hyperlinking, and other tasks.
23:18, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Likewise! Isn't it fun to be creative without having to fight tooth and nail just to be creative? Somehow that is always what happens when wikis get bigger: it attract the people who fear and hate creativity. Then they gang up and suppress the ones that built up the place to start with... Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 23:41, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
One example of that was my attempt to do something with hierarchical ISO codes. I put those on all the main category pages for various laguages, see e.g. nl:Categorie:Woorden in het Nederlands. In part to facilitate iw linking. The full hierarchical ISO code for Dutch is actually und:ine:gem:gmw:nld. Nld is the 639-3 code for Dutch, gmw for West-Germanic, gem for Germanic, ine for Indo-European and Und means we don't know a larger category (or it is too uncertain). You can click on the parts of the code at nl.wikti to visit the family categories, but somebody fought me tooth and nail arguing that a dictionary did not 'need' this kind of categorization and that that was generating far too many categories.

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 23:41, 16 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Yes! Yes! Yes! ...and I love the way we are building on each other's work, to create something wonderful.
Do you want to implement the equivalent of that nl:Categorie:Woorden in het Nederlands here? I would LOVE to see it happen, and would love to help in any way I can.
I finally had a look at ISO 639-5. It is exactly what we need (assuming it is well implemented), and yes, I agree 100% that we should use the codes for the parent field. It would be so nice if that field were also a hyperlink so that one could traverse a table for a given language (e.g., follow all the elements in und:ine:gem:gmw:nld), say for etymologies or translation tables. I strongly believe it would be useful for many people: linguists, etymologists and students learning a language. Cognatives are always helpful to me, as are etymologies, when learning any language. It will probably take me a day or three, depending on my house guest (who is getting a Masters degree in Creative Writing, and is off at campus for a few days), but I can have the full ISO 639-5 (with parents codes) in a table similar to the one in my sandbox.
Should we redirect/replace the existing Teamplaidean cànain, or run a parallel set? What we have now is a mix of ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-3; since we have so few articles, it would be nice to upgrade to ISO 639-5 now, but that would break some existing modules and templates. How is your tolerance for chaos? Mine exists, but is not that high, which makes me think we should run in parallel and slowly convert to ISO 639-5. Maybe by the time we finish, ISO 639-6 will be done? :)
Some people simply have no imagination, and are determined fight tooth and nail for mediocrity. I saw the same phenomena on :en:wikipedia, too. That is a (small) reason I went to Uicipeid; and a large reason I moved off Eòin when you were working on it - I did not want to step on your toes or risk any conflict.
Me, I am a sorter by nature. I love categorizing and cross-referencing - maybe because my memory has never been outstanding. It has always been easier for me to derive a function than to memorize one. More than that, I find that cross-referencing can spark new ideas and uncover hidden connections. My spreadsheet is full of colors that enable other links and filters.
Perhaps if we are very quiet we may work our magic on Uiclair for a while. :-) I am very excited!
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 06:13, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Just came across this and now understand why the efforts to arrive at some form of universal code system has suddenly stopped. Some people are screaming that it is 'unscientific' which as a scientist I find rather unscientific: the classification of living beings is also far from ideal but it has been improving over the years and that really should be the criterion, not that is must be flawless from the start... Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 05:34, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Just skimmed the PDF. People have complex agendas, most of which bewilder me.
As a "sorter", I am very fond of taxonomy, which has been experiencing a small revolution the past several years, due I suspect in part to the availability of DNA sequencing and the associated research. The turmoil has many folks annoyed/fearful/agumentative and has caused factionalism - or did last time I checked. I just keep remembering people like Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Galileo, de Chardin, Bacon, Kant, et cetera and the historic turmoil of new scientific ideas. Our species is factious: this turmoil too shall pass. Eventually. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 18:06, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

ISO 639-5[deasaich]

I added 639-5 tags to all existing language templates. I took a little poetic license here and there, but in general the system is pretty workable though far from ideal.

{{nl}} returns Duitsis
{{nl|2}} returns ine:gem:gmw

I made it 1=2, because I had already added some family names, e.g.:

{{nl|1}} returns Gearmanach an Iar

However it was much easier to just add the 639-5 tags than to come up with Gàidhlig names for language families in Farawayistan. So for most the 1 value does not work. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 19:46, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. We can add Gàidhlig names as/when possible; there probably aren't any Gàidhlig names for language families in many Farawayistans yet anyway. ThisIsSusanBell might be helpful there. I suspect Akerbeltz coins them, anyway. We could become a standard, if we are careful.
I am thinking that Language names and countries are articles I can add; I'll use Am Faclair Beag, Uicipeid, and Wictionary as sources. I know I am not supposed to use Wikipedia or Wictionary as sources, but they are a springboard for further research. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 20:11, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Please do. I have completed the translations for a còig. And yes I have tried to do some caol le caol on the names. May Akerbeltz forgive me... I think I will change the format of 'trans' a bit in that I'll put column with the 639-5 prefixes to the left of the 639-2/3 language-codes-as-screwed-up-by-wiki (nl.wikti tried to get everyone to standardize on the three letter codes in 639-3 but to no avail. Wiki would have to change the domain names to eng.wikipedia and of course that was as unthinkable as giving up on elbows, feet and thumbs as measuring units. Sorry to nag. Next year it will be the bicentennial of adopting the metric system in my home country. When will Americans follow? )

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 21:12, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Prototyping is fine be me. We can refine step-by-step.
LOL. We can standardise on 3-digit codes here; let us be a pilot project. Innovators and critical/creative thinkers.
Americans follow the metric system? Ha! Most of my compatriots are not interested in either math or science anyway, so why would they want to make it easier on themselves? They cannot get past the word, much less understand what it is or how it would help us. I seem to remember we began the conversion in the 1970s, or at least announced it, when I was in high school, but it was never mentioned again. Something about signage, expense, blah blah blah. The real issue is that no one with power has decided to take up the gauntlet and make a buck. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 21:37, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
I like a còig. If we could make each code a link, I can write an article on each code, with a link to a language article and a country article. What do you think? Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 21:41, 17 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Fàilte air ais[deasaich]


I hope you had a good time with your guests! Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 19:59, 22 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Oh Akerbeltz said some things about language names. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 20:39, 22 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your wish! I had a lovely time with my friend. She was here for a seminar related to gaining her Masters' degree in creative writing this coming July. Yesterday, I drove her to the airport in Portland, Oregon - about 4 hours away. The Seattle airport is closer (2.5 hours), but it was much less stressful to drive to Portland; Seattle traffic is abysmal. The whole trip was 12 hours, and I was very tired by the time I got home.
I read your discussion with Akerbeltz. I agree with you about both the bad exonyms/(bad) English renderings and the "cànan .." approach. I wonder what/if he will reply.
One of the advantages of using a template for the language name in all Uiclair articles is that it can be changed globally with a single edit. Susan Bell discussed the issue of multiple names of eòin at one point with me. She suggested citing the source of each name, and allowing the reader to see who uses what, which seems to be most common etc. In our templates, it is possible to document citations and alternate names within comments (). What would you think about simply choosing the best guess, and documenting as much as possible/necessary within comments in the template? It can easily be changed later if we find a better term.
I have finished compiling my Cànain spreadsheet: it has collated ISO 639-1, -2, 3, -5, and -6 codes. I have eliminated duplicates, but it still has 26913 rows of data! There are many errors in what remains of ISO 639-6, but who can blame them if it were abandoned mid-project. I am trying to make a Uiclair version of most of the data.. we shall see how successful I am. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 22:08, 22 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)


Just try and google that for fun. Uiclair will be a first... ;-) Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 01:25, 23 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Google it? I can't even see that script. :) Tell me what language it is so that I might enable it. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 01:39, 23 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Gabh mo leisgeul. Tha e lontara. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 01:42, 23 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

ːːːmmm. ɪnstalled it; still cannot see it. ɪn the middle of a huɡe operation, but afterward, will try loɡɡinɡ out and back in to see if it's pointers were scrambled while workinɡ with massive amounts of data. βuɡ, huhʔ ʌery cool. ɪ seem to be writinɡ in the ɣreek character set off and on since installinɡ it, so it may indeed contain a buɡ. ;) ̃̃̃ ːːː̃̃̃

lol; I tried firefox, ie and chrome and I can see the script in firefox and explorer but not in chrome. I'm in windows 8. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 02:28, 23 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Currently, I am on Chrome in Windows 7, but also work on Uiclair in Chrome on Windows 8, which explains why I cannot see the font. Sometimes I use I.E., but it often hangs on me. Firefox, I virtually never use it.
Your Buggy fonts are absolved of sin: I discovered that I had somehow switched keyboards in the Uiclair edit window. I'm not sure what I typed to get to the X-SAMPA keyboard, but I did. LOL.
It turns out the table I am trying to create was 800 KB bigger than allowed for a single Uiclair page. I am eliminating the ISO 639-6 data, and shortening the notes section. I haven't yet gone through the Gaelic names to weed out the "weird" ones, but that can be done later. This has been a very interesting project; I've learned a great deal in a short time.
Did Akerbeltz ever get back to you? If not, try contacting him through Am Faclair Beag or his company(ies) "Akerbeltz" in Glasgow - he is Michael Bauer in real life, and is the creator of AFB. He may not know/recognize me as Kibi, but it is just as well if he does not. He may never respond if he realizes I am involved. lol
Slàinte mhath. :)
BTW - It turns out that I can only see the Buigis font in Windows 8.


Hi Kibi,

One thing that bugs me a little is that there is very little bot activity here. New pages do not get interwiki links on a regular basis. That means that the name Gàidhlig does not get put on the sidebar on other wikti's. Is there something you could do about that? I asked JanD and YS before and they connected a few and then it was over again.

Any ideas? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 02:03, 25 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

Funny you should ask. I was literally just on the verge of importing the teamplaid:bot. It may help, but I'm not sure if that is all there is to it. We have been missing many, many modules and templates that the bots may depend upon. Last night, I categorized the bot accounts (among other things), in. If we continue to receive no bot activity, we could directly contact some of the bot owners.
I will say that the more bot activity, the higher our profile and the more likely other Wikipedians will come here to edit: thus, it is a two-edged sword. I was quite anxious when I overloaded the wiki server trying to instantiate the mega-table with all my ISO 639 research. I thought the admins would descend upon us. lol Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 03:23, 25 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
Also, look at... It turns out that we did have teamplaid:Bot (uppercase/litir mhór), but for some reason on our site the teamplaidean are case-sensitive (aire do litrichean móra is beaga ). I'm sure we are missing a module or a template, but I've no idea (yet) what it is. I've been trying to resolve the issues I find in the Sònraichte:SpecialPages since I arrived here, but it takes time. In the mean time, I have been forced to create several redirections/aliases to handle the case sensitivity issue. :( Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 03:33, 25 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)
I just had a horrible thought. We have a funny mix between Gaelic and English page name prefixes (e.g., Chleachdaiche:, Teamplaid:, Roinn-seòrsa:, Sònraichte:). The bots may be written such that they look for specific prefixes (e.g., User:, Template:, Category:, Special:). It isn't how I would do it, but you never know.

I had another thought about our lack of bot activity. Perhaps it is because of our naming conventions? I have been adding month names and abbreviations; last night I added templates for both Spàinntis and Fraingis months.
I noticed that on the Spàinntis wiki, they classify as Categoría:Meses (~Roinn-seòrsa:Mìosan) and Categoría:Meses del calendario gregoriano (we don't have an equivalent, but it would be something like Roinn-seòrsa:Am Mìosachan Griogarach). They have no bot activity on their page Enero (~Am Faoilleach/January).
es:enero, on the other hand has a fair amount of bot activity, but none since 24 August 2014.
On the Fraingis wiki, Janvier also has no bot activity. It is categorized as Catégorie:Mois and Catégorie:Janvier (an equilvalent to this category is on the Spàinntis wiki.
The last bot activity on fr:janvier was on 15 Feb 2015. Their categories on this page are
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 18:59, 11 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)


Sorry that I negelcted the lang parameter and forced you to wade through my Dutch entries: we never used it at nl.wikt because we did not keep track of the audio-files. Can we make something like "Briathran na Duitsise le ceangal-fuaime" for the category though? We'd need to incorporate the genitive ending stuff somehow though. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 23:26, 28 dhen Ghearrain 2015 (UTC)

No worries! This is actually just as much my fault, too. I have been diligently stripping out the lang parameter from the English Audio-IPA files because it originally broke the templates. I accidentally left one in last night, and discovered that I had imported all of the necessary templates. I had been struggling earlier with a translation for the category, and had decided to wait. If that is the proper translation, I know just where to add it in teamplaid:Audio-IPA. I think that using your nested if statements from generating the names of other category files should work for the genitive ending stuff, right?
Well, I take it back; it isn't as easy as I thought. I am editing the template to send articles to some category similar to "Briathran na Duitsise le ceangal-fuaime". The tricky part is that the nested if statements from, say, {{-noun-}} reference parameters by posistion rather than by named parameters. Since the language declaration tends to be at the end of the Audio-IPA template call, I won't always know what position the h- parameter will be in, nor the parameter that says not to lenite. I may break it for a bit until I figure out how it will go, but otherwise it should work like the teamplaid:-noun- parameters works. I hope that makes sense. I'll update the documentation with examples (in English, soz) on the template when I figure it out.
Check out Teamplaid:audio-IPA and see if you like the changes. I decided to cut the Gordian knot. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 02:57, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

the genitive problem[deasaich]


I think I solved the genitive problem in the category names. I included all the genitives (including the article na ..) into the g= something option of all the language templates and made the -noun-, -adj-, -adv-, -pron- and -verb- such that they call {{iso|g}} where iso=nl,en etc. It seems to work fine, so we can do away with the silly {{-noun-|en|no}} and {{-noun-|af||h}} syntax. Doesn't solve our lua problems, I know, but one step at the time, I'd say. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 05:49, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

'S math sin! I saw small (-adj-|en), seomra (-noun-|ga), acqua (-noun-|it) and huis (-nlainmear-), Teamplaid:en, Teamplaid:nl, agus Teamplaid:it. It's a step forward and a great deal of work you did. When I am not dozing off every 15 minutes, I'll start looking into the lua issue. If worst comes to worst, I can ask Sionnach to fix specific files in specific ways if I have no permission to edit them. For now, I am mindlessly adding English words in my ambulatory catatonia. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 06:12, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

language names[deasaich]

Just stumbled onto this...
Àrd-sgoilear! Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 21:01, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)


I hadn't bothered about etymology anymore than about syllabization as you may have noticed, because I wanted to create some pages, with sparse but decent content. However, etymologiebank has pretty much all etymology for Dutch that we can link to, giving a little synopsis + link. I was going to do that for Dutch entires from now on, but of course the cognate English words are often given there too, so I put the same link for the English word man as for the Dutch one. The only problem with that is that it sends the Gàidhlig reader to a Dutch site rather than an EnglishGàidhlig one. Thoughts? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 22:38, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

As I understand it, most native Gaelic speakers are polyglots; very few are "radicalized" militant and don't usually object to other languages. If the Dutch site is easy to interpret, why not? Exposure to Dutch is not a bad thing for anyone. ;-) 22:42, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
When I was wrting etymologies on en:wictionary, I was using the sources listed at en:wikipedia:Etymological_dictionary#Online_etymological_dictionaries Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 22:55, 1 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

More thoughts on Dutch references on this site. Part of the reason I am doing this, aside from questions about the potential language of my ancestors, is to try to preserve and possibly enhance a non-mainstream language.
In the county in which I live, there are at least 4 three separate native languages (one with potentially two three dialects), all of which are dying as far as I know. The languages here belong to the Quilleute, Makah, Lower Elwha Klallam, and Jamestown S'Klallam (who enhabit at least two separate locations). Very near us are the Port Gamble Band of S’Klallam peoples, and the on the other side of the peninsula are the Hoh and Quinault peoples. The place at which I will be taking weekly classes beginning next week is the site of an extinct language, the Chimakum. Across the Strait of Juan de Fuca on Vancouver Island, Canada live many first peoples with distinct languages. That is just in roughly a 100-mile radius.
All of these cultures and languages are dying (or dead) as far as I can tell. That is a travesty, as far as I am concerned, and the world will be significantly less if they disappear. For every language I have learned, no matter how poorly I have learned it, I have discovered new ways of perceiving the world. Concepts don't always completely map between languages. Read a book in two languages, and you get a slightly different picture from each version. The emPHAsis will be on different syLABles in each version. The knowlege, stories, history, art, music and culture of any people are unique, precious, and worth preserving.
For that reason alone, exposing more people to Dutch is a good idea, IMO. I read the links you made on man, or at least I scanned them. I cannot actually read the page, but there are cognates I recognize. I personally know several people who could read it, including you. Preserving every language is a sacred duty, IMO.
Therefore, it is appropriate to link as many languages as possible to this site, as you are actively doing. We are doing good work, no matter how imperfectly we are doing it. Make as many references to Dutch (and other language) works as you can. The world should not be limited to one or even five languages. (But, then, I think the same thing about species and strongly believe in biodiversity, and dislike anthropocentrism for the same reasons.)
OK, enough philosophizing. G'night. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 07:42, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your philosophy: it is largely my own. I live in Raleigh NC and speak English all day, but I have been typing away first at nl.wikipedia when it had but 400 pages and Dutch speakers would come and tell me I was wasting my time if it was not in English. Later I moved to nl.wiktionary and af.wikipedia, both of them about as lonely as here (thanks for changing that). I even tried xh.wikipedia. I refuse to give up on my tribal tongue. Not because it is 'the best in the world', but because the world would be lessened without it. The internet has given us people in the diaspora a reconnection to our tribes and we should exploit that. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 20:01, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
And thank you for etymology list: I think I will try to correlate what little it has on Buginese to Matthes' dictionary. It is pretty much the only access to the I Galigo, the largest epic poem of this planet that is entirely in Lontara, a script that is dying even on its home island of Celebes. (Sulawesi if you prefer.) It is also severy underrepresented on the internet Matthes' work is entirely in Buginese and Dutch, which most linguist cannot read. So, this explains my weird attempts of creating a Lontara/Buginese section to a Gallic wiktionary. Adding some etymology would be rather interesting as would addition of modern day Latin script Buginese. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 20:17, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
I never questioned why you were working in Lontara. It is a beautiful thing on it's own merit; but to know that there is an epic poem in Lontara, that is a thing to cherish.
I learned to read by looking at the pictures un "Mythology" in my father's encyclopedia. Stories, poems, philosophy, mythology; these are what makes my heart sing. It would be lovely if you could translate that poem into several languages to bring it to the world. Post it here in Gaelic! It would be interesting to see one side of Gaelic and one side of Lontara.
Oh, mo chreach... Translate 300,000 lines of poetry form one language I do not speak to another I do not speak either? I hope you are joking... Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 20:47, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
A little bit; but I sense you want to translate it into Dutch. You could translate it as prose rather than poetry. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 20:53, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
Never give up your tribal tongue or culture; it would diminish you. In celebration of that tongue and culture, I offer you this: TilburgDailyPhoto
I have lived in communities where the people had been forced to give up their tribal knowledge; the people are impoverished on all levels because of it.
BTW - you are not alone. My ex-sister-in-law Deirdre lives in Raleigh with her husband Mort Barlaz, who teaches at the University. They too are preserving a culture, but neither Gaelic nor Dutch. She and I studied Hebrew when we were very young (me for ideological reasons, she because her father was Jewish and she was going to study in Israel), and spoke a mishmash of French, Hebrew and English between ourselves at one point in our lives. One of her closest friends, also an acquaintance of mine, is tring to preserve all Things Celtic. One of my closest friends has a sister-in-law that moved from Austin, TX to Rotterdam. She now has a Dutch family, and speaks Dutch. There are people trying to preserve (or rediscover) tribal knowledge. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 20:34, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

Piece of Galigo[deasaich]

La Pananrang spoke:
'It would be good, o prince of Wareq,
to rest while before departing to Tjina
in order to drive commerce in the palace of La Tan'et'e
catch a glimpse of that which you desire.
Afterwards I will go to Tjina
and do a marriage proposal in La Tan'et'e.'
Saw'erigading answered:
'In seven days, brother, I shall go to Tjina.
The sun's glow is already in the west.
the shadows already point to the east,
the people would soon not know
where in the land they find themselves.'
Evening fell,
the princely torches were lit,
the waxen candles were burnt
in the chambers of the W'elenr'eng.
The whole night the sailors did not shut an eye.
The next morning Saw'erigading arose
and washed his face at the porcelein washing basin
looked in the mirror
opened a golden sirih bin
and chewed sirih to refresh his thoughts
La Pananrang spoke together met La Massaguni:
'Panritu Ugiq, give orders
to set the bamboo crucibles
and put down the cooking pots'
Faster than sirih can be chewed to bits
everything was put in order
the food was prepared for the people
the golden plates were served
with on them the dishes for the prince of Wareq,
followed by the golden dishes
with the servings for the prince of Luwuq.
Saw'erigading's fingers were cleaned
and he ate together with the people.
Before they were emptied the dishes were replenished.
As flying white doves
the Javan mugs were passed around
and the people drank until a blush appeared on their cheeks
Not for a moment they longed back for Luwuq
the prosperous land were they grew up.
Seven times they took a morsel
the prince of Luwuq and his cousins,
after that the bamboo crucibles were removed,
taken out of the way the golden dishes
for the servings of Saw'erigading
and they were presented with sirih.
After the prince of Wareq had chewed the sirih Saw'erigading said:
'Brother Pananrang, feed your slaves
La Oroq Kelling, La Tau Buleng and La Tau Pantj'eq'
Dishes were served
for La Oroq Kelling, La Tau Buleng and La Tau Pantj'eq'
They were presented with drinking bowls
from which La Oroq Kelling drank
Seven times the bowls went around.
With a glance of his eye Saw'erigading ordered
to catch La Oroq Kelling
La Oroq Kelling was dressed up beautifully by La Gongkona.
After that Saw'erigading arose
and brandished his golden skinning knife
in order to skin La Oroq Kelling with it.
Screeching La Oroq Kelling said:
'Have pity, prince of Wareq,
pierce me with your golden kris first,
let me not feel the work of your hands
let not my soul float between death and life.
Crying Saw'erigading said:
'Do not curse me, La Oroq Kelling,
do not thwart me in obtaining a spouse in Tjina,
Devastated I am,
I could not stay in my land
and marry my sister.
I had put my mind on her,
on her with whom I shared a placenta.
I did not want to stay in my land
exiled myself to far places
And who knows, the princely pair of Luwuq might die,
without ever seeing their son again.
And you, my friend, will serve as my disguise in Tjina'.

(Translated from Dutch, not Buginese)

Wow! Fascinating, and so rich. It paints a picture of a time that does not seem that long ago. It started out so beautifully, but twists unexpectedly.
Seven seems to be a significant number in that culture, as in so many others.
Thank you for sharing that. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 22:50, 2 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
So, as in ancient Egyptian culture, the prince and princess, in this case, twins, were expected to wed, as their parents did. But our prince refused, and is on a mission to find a wife, but asks for help, and perhaps an intermidiary - he needs a Cyrano, or a Tristan? Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:26, 9 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
No, as I understand it the opposite is the case. It was foretold that the brother could fall in love with his twin sister -bringing great woe onto the family- and therefore their parents raised them separately. Unfortunately, once grown up, the prince found the hidden quarters of his sister and promptly fell in love with her... Then his parents tried to send him away and find a bride far away. How it ends I have no idea. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 05:50, 9 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)


I put the Buginese term in, but there is a lot of white space above the words. Has that got to do with the sunday2 parms I used? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 04:21, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what is causing that - but it's global, not you. I keep trying to get rid of it because it is so ugly, but so far no luck. It may be that the line is too long. :(
I introduced it when I had to put in conditional clauses for even the first variations of the days of the weeks. I will keep looking for the problem.
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:27, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
I think I fixed it, there was a break statement in the first if statement that caused it. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 04:28, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
YAAAYYYY! Thank you. :) Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:29, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
What a dumb bug I introduced last night. I think I was just too tired to see it. Thanks again for fixing it. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd)


Just for kicks have a look at this google search Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 14:55, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
LOL - Gunmhoine is now famous, and has gained some immortality for your work in Buigis. Good job!
Tapadh leat.
I also very much like the idea of the chemistry terms you are/were entering. The more math and science terms, the better.
I agree, but chemistry is hard: I still don't know what electronegativity is... And yes I looked and looked
Shortly after he published Dwelly air loidhne, long before Am Faclair Beag existed, I met Akerbetlz when I started emailing corrections to the botanical and zoological names in Dwelly air loidhne - there were understandably many typos. I think he transcribed Dwelly's dictionary by hand onto the computer; the text in my edition is too tiny and too fuzzy to scan well, IMHO.
Bless Dwelly for catalouging so many along with their taxonomic ids. It appears that a bontanist with the Gaelic has been at Am Faclir Beag, as well.
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 16:50, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

BTW is ᨕᨈᨙ the liver organ? If so, I found many translations at en:liver#Translations; I think I would like to add tables of translations to all your Bugis articles, but eventually to all articles, in general. If not tables of translations, some kind of cross referencing of articles to get a list of equivalent or at least related terms in other languages.
Yes, ate is liver.
Most wiktionaries centralize that on the page of the working language, but as both of us are not native (idir), we might want to find a different solution. Couldn't we put the trans table on a separate page? An interlanguage page? Say uisge/eadar or so. Actually for water we did do that at nl-wikt because the list became too large. Someone tried to collect as many translations as he could and that made the list rather unwieldy.
An elegant solution: put the trans tables on separate pages, and then add links to that page. I like it.
What if the /eadar page is always off of the main article page in Gàidhlig, though that might necessistate creating many stubs (bun is bunan).
Another solution might be to have, say, Eadar:uisge pages. Let's think on it. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd)
I saw that some Wiktionary sites have a template to add translations in the articles; the newly volunteered terms appear to be flagged with a tag for verification, and another tag indicates that the translation has been verified... I like the idea of that process.

Yes so do I but it exceeds my limiting programming skills.
Let me see if I can figure it out.Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd)
I have been using your Teamplaid:trans: I like it very much. It is a tiny bit difficult to use with the double indices - though a sound programming concept. I wonder if there is an easy way to reduce it to a single index, while retaining backward compatibility.Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 17:15, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
I tried to limit it to one, but could not find an easy way to do that.
Hmmm. OK. There may be a way to use an embedded template to populate the indices. Let me work on it in my sandbox. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd)

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 17:45, 18 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)


I have done some unspeakable things to a few language templates and now anker looks like this. If you don't like it I undo the unspeakable. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 20:24, 20 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

What is the unspeakable part of the changes you made? All three definitions of anker look better than fine to me. (Maybe you are teasing me with humor drier than my own??? I have been told my sense of humor sometimes seems to be surgically removed when I am tired or stressed.)
Obh, obh, Kibi bhochd.. I have made this sort of changes in the way things look before and been shot down pretty angrily: everything had to look like it does on en.wiktionary otherwise it isn't good enough for some people... So I was worried you'd be upset.
LOL - I did not even notice the boxes; they seem "right". They look fine to me and do delineate the lemmas.
I am the last person to object to creation, renovation, or innovation. I might critique it, but rarely deny it.
  • The changes you made to Teamplaid:da-noun and Teamplaid:nl-noun are great; you have, in effect, simplified the Uiclair "definition grammar", eliminating several (annoying) "curly braces", AND it looks as if these changes might be backwards compatible were they implemented on Teamplaid:-noun-. What's not to like?
I was referring mostly to the box I have put around the entry of each language. I think it makes lemmas a bit more readable when there are more than one language on a page, but it means that Uiclair will look a bit different than all other wiktionaries.
I am not afraid of marching out of step with everyone else; it's apparently a character flaw. Mutation is the mechanism of evolution; innovation is the pathway to (unobtainable) perfection. (Mistakes often breed better understanding and sometimes compassion.) Dawinisim or its equivalent will prevail.
    • I have been thinking something similar would be nice for quite some time, but I've been too lazy to work on it. (Participating in two very diverse certification programs, learning Gaelic plus bio-dynamics all have made me disinclined to write anything but very simple templates. I have been drinking information from a firehose for months; my head is exploding!)
  • I also like the clàr na cinnteach/neo-cinnteach under Danmhairgis; however, I am fond of tables.
  • I like the meanbhach included under Duitsis.
In Dutch the diminutive is the most productive suffix. We use it to express a ton of different nuances. The diminutive is not always formed in a regular way and so Dutch dictionaries always show both the plural and the diminutive -if it is used-, so I am just following dictionary customs.
Interesting. I briefly argued with Akerbeltz about naming Am Faclair Beag because of the irony and hubris I perceived in the name. Spanish, almost my second language, seems to overload nuances in both diminutives and augmentatives. Especially hidden irony and sarcasm. I sometimes think that is why everything is bigger (or smaller) in Texas, and that Spanish is secretly a tonal language...
BTW - can you see the Fuaimneachadh "player" on Windows 8? I cannot see it in any browser on Windows 8, but I can see it in Windows 7 in three different browsers. However, I can see the Bugis font in any browser on Windows 8, but in none on Windows 7. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 01:24, 21 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
I have no problem other than not seeing the lontary on my computer in the lab.
Hmmmm.... Blocked?

=templates= and cases[deasaich]

OK so I have been screwing around with some templates.

  1. The main language templates: I made a master template: =xxx= that contains all the formatting. Initially I thought that we could just change all the =iso= templates to transclude it, but actually we don't need them at all. Have a look at Berg to see what I mean. Of course of backward compat we might need to maintain the =iso= templates. Replacing them with =xxx=|iso on 1100 pages by hand is no fun and I do not know how to write a bot for that. I added an optional second parm to =xxx=. If it says toc it puts a TOC statement before opening a box for the lemma. The idea is to add that for the top language on the page.
  2. On Berg I also experimented with the inclusion of a declension table. I ended up using float to put the table on the right side. I don't know if you are happy with that. It is customary at nl, de, ru and fr but not at en. I have often wondered why, because
on the
left, which means you are wasting all this screen space on the right. But as you know the en.wikti better than me you might know more about why they have chosen to do that there. So, if you prefer on the left side we can go back to that

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 02:13, 23 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

In software companies, when someone releases/publishes a new program, the understanding is that the new software will be used on everything going forward. If someone happens to touch old code, then it is upgraded to the new standards, but no one expects to make the old code current. Id est, don't sweat the articles without the new template. Variety is spicy.
Except for the name, I like the Teamplaid:=xxx=; however, since this is gd:Uiclair and not en:Wiktionary, the name is fine as it is. I will laugh quietly to myself every time I use it, though. To me, Tres Equis is either really bad Mexican beer or very poor quality movies/videos that rarely have plots. I will consider it payback for a shirt I used to wear that advertised the local university radio station. My colleague and buddy, who was from Curaçao and so spoke Dutch, used to laugh every time I wore it. The radio station's call letters were KUT.
Lol! I suppose I could make it that too, although kut might be a language code. English acronyms can sometimes crack me up too. Did you know that lol means fun in Dutch and has done so long before the laughing out loud acronym... OK, I'll think of something better. Maybe just =C= for canan? Of =ISO= for iso code?
XXX is fine! :-) Any short combination of letters will have some meaning to someone, in my opinion. whatever you choose, =XXX= or =C= is fine. For a while, I was trying to use Gaelic names/abbreviations for template names. You'll see things like Teamplaid:-ainm-sòn- that I wrote, so =C= is especially appropriate.
No, I did not know lol means fun in Dutch! That is lovely.
Love the declension table, though the header line is quite large. I will say that I read a disparaging thread somewhere about imposing Latin-style tables on Gaelic, but I like tables. I think that many of the articles on Uiclair are visually dull and dreary, and anything that gives them some character and visual diversity is a good thing.
My thought entirely: we would do wise to make it look good if we want to attract people. Do you mean the Cruthan title? I don't know if I can change that, but I'll try.
Yes, the Cruthan title. I am thinking that maybe it is style="font-size: 14px that is making it large?
If you wished, you could play with the titlebar, making the background of the titlebar your favorite color. "Teamplaid:font color" allows you to change the font color and background. See Teamplaid:Font color and Web colors.
Floating tables, pictures, or whatever on the right (or center) is very fine by me. I myself placed images on the right, left, and even center in the Uicipeid articles I worked on. As I said, I will rarely argue about any innovative or creative embellishment you come up with; I may critique it, but I cannot see myself asking to have it removed unless it somehow interfered with conveying information to our audience. In other words, redaction is right out, in my book. Anything else to make our articles interesting, especially to children, is fine by me.
One thing is adding pictures I think. But I do value your input on what I fabrique. On other screens things may look very different than on mine and that makes it hard to find something that looks good on all screens / browsers / devices.
Good point. So far, everything you've done looks good on my browsers. Lately I have been working almost exclusively on Windows 7 Firefox na Gàidlig.
The guys on en:wikti and en:wiki... I find many of them (not all) to be ultraconservative, unimaginative, ultra-authoritarian, uninteresting and uncomfortable to work with: U5. Many are extremely territorial, as well. Forget them. In many cases, I do like consistency, but it can be a hobgoblin. Whitespace is good and important, but all things in moderation, including moderation itself.
Me, I love pictures, tables, graphs, -c--o--l--o--r--s-, hyperlinks, and way too much information; I unconsciously filter out what does not interest me at any given moment, but what I am researching often varies from session to session. If information is ommitted, then my research may fail. That is why I love our collapsed tables. Visual stimulation and deviation from the expected: they keep us awake, and might even ignite a spark in someone. People learn in different ways.
Again: I agree. The collapsables are a good way to give loads of info without too much clutter on the page.
Exactly. D'acc, as they said in France last few times I visited.
I will say that I dislike abbreviations after living in corporate acronym-land for three decades. There are only so many abbreviations available, and inevitably they become overloaded with multiple definitions. I find them annoyingly prone to creating confusion and misunderstandings. I realize I am probably in the minority on that opinion, so I pick my battles; however, I try to rarely abbreviate in my own writing. I do approve of contractions, though.
There are only 26 letters in the alphabet... But then if you define the header as =language code= you condemn yourself to write that over and over... That means that single letter headers like =C= are rather precious: there are just so many of them and they make writing a page a lot easier.
Very true. I'm sure that whatever you choose will be fine. 14:35, 23 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

Bot and adminship[deasaich]

Hello, I noticed, that your wiktionary is now active :-) I can help you with bot, but I need If you can add to your categories at least one correct intewiki link to other languages. I Am working on it now, but I dont know language, so I must search waht is it about :-)

BTW what about to ask on meta for sysop rights? You need only consenus of community (you and college, you can ask both for rights :-) JAn Dudík (an deasbaireachd) 08:19, 26 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

Hi, JAn! Nice to meet you. Yes, we are trying to revive this wiktionary. :)
Many of our articles have interwiki links to many languages; I think they were placed there by bots. See water‏‎ for an example of a page with interwiki links. Are they wrong? Tell me how to fix them to help you.
Thanks for the hint about sysop rights. I will request credentials from Meta - but probably not for two days - I am in class all day tomorrow. I will tell Gunmhoine, but I do not think he wants the responsibilty any more. :-)
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 08:32, 26 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
Artices does not need manually inserted interwiki, bot will find the same-title o other wiktionaries.
I meant categories (e.g.)JAn Dudík (an deasbaireachd) 09:33, 26 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
OK. So I need to manually put the same kind of links on each of the categories? I can start tonight; I'm in western USA, Pacific Daylight Savings Time (PDST). Is any valid link to any one languange is sufficient to start? Like a key, right? I'll see if I can start with en:, es: or fr: Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 14:16, 26 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
Fine, my bot goes through. When you add at least one link te each new category, my bot will sometimes work on it. When you add gd: link to another wiktionary, my bot find it earlier. (I am working on all languages, from the bottom to the top). JAn Dudík (an deasbaireachd) 08:57, 27 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

genitives again[deasaich]

I made a template for the short form (gender + genitive + plural) for a gd.noun. The syntax goes:


See: geug.

This mostly eliminates the need for a {{g}} or {{gen}} template. I did not like either of those names. "gen" is a valid ISO639 language name and g is rather short given that there is a bunch of other tuisealan to worry about (as in Basque e.g.). I have generated a bunch of templates for the cases I could find Gàidhlig names for and made them into {{t.gen}} or {{t.loc}} etc. We might need them once we start generating pages for noun-forms I suppose, but I don't think we are ready for that: too much lower hanging fruit I think.

Oh, one little gripe. Are you sure you want to put double brackets around capitalized forms like [[Tha]]? That word might exist but not likely in Gàidhlig, because there it would be [[tha]]. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 01:50, 29 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

Excellent, in regard to the Teamplaid:gd-noun. Taing. Could you, would you make the genitive and plural nouns bold-faced links, please?
I think it is better to enter things as '''[[genitive_form]]''' rather than hardwire it in the template, because you might need to enter things like '''[[genitive_form]], [[other_genitive_form]]''' at times. It makes the templates unduly complicated to deal with such exceptions in advance, but you usually do run into them at some point.
A valid point.
I was actually working on a Teamplaid:eu-noun-inan for inanimate Basque nouns, though I am a bit frustrated with it. There are just so many declension cases for which I have no Gaelic names. BTW - I liked your question about Partitive/am pàirteach to the Uici community portal, though I was surprised the reply was about "Briathrach Cànanachas - Beurla-Gàidhlig (le Gàidhlig na hÉireann)". I may borrow a page from your book if that book/.doc does not have the answers.
ohh, I did not realize that.. I did put in a few more cases, but I have not located all of them so far, so I see your point.
On some thread somewhere, I read a suggestion for using Irish equivalents when no obvious Gaelic term existed. I believe Sionnach replied that in Alba, the English works better.
Where is Sionnach, anyway. On vacation? The last contrib of Sionnach's was on 14 dhen Ghearrain. Akerbeltz seems to be performing admin duties on Uicipeid.
I can hardly wait until I start working on Navaho nouns; I may need a three or four dimensional table to handle all of the forms. (Just kidding... kind of.)
Hmm, can we do single value decomposition on them to reduce the dimensionality? Works on spectroscopic data (just kidding ... kind of) how's your chemistry coming?
You laugh, but I think that may be the tack (tact?) needed. ;)
Chemisty. Well, they have been teasing us. They touched on it briefly on the first day, but this certification program training is similar to a survey class: very broad, no depth. I am hoping the topic will come up again with a bit more depth. Otherwise, I need to locate someone at WSU (or somewhere) who knows their stuff.
I have no ego invested in Teamplaid:g; I was just following the existing template paradigm as I understand it. If we get admin credentials, we can delete it, though we must deal with all of the 29 pages that link to it first.
You are, of course, correct about the capitalaization/hyperlink issue. Tha mi duilich! I'll deal with it by changing it/them to [[tha|Tha]]; I had already started to fix capitalization issues with the names of days of the week/months of the year. The offending pages are easy to locate by looking at Duilleagan sònraichte => Duilleagan a thathar 'gan iarraidh => (lorg air "Tha") => 10. Tha‏‎ (202 ceangal <sigh>) => Duilleagan a tha a' ceangal ri "Tha"; just a bit swamped at the moment.
I do need to slow down and be more deliberate; I just feel as if there is so much to do. My stack keeps piling higher and higher, and not only Uiclair tasks, when all I really want to do is write articles for the teamplaidean làithean na seachdain I wrote so many days ago. At this rate, it will be weeks before I can get back to them. Quite discouraging.
Look at how much fuller the glass is becoming... Ignore the empty part. The nice thing is that anything we do is more than there was... Who knows maybe we'll actually be joined by a mother tongue speaker at some point.
True. That is why I was so excited about reaching 1K. I find it necessary to celebrate the small milestones in order to appreciate what we are accomplishing. It helps keep me from becoming discouraged.
I've been thinking about creating a "Ri Dhèanamh" page for all of the chores I seem to be accumulating... Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:39, 29 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
Don't. Make a dèanta page instead.
Maybe both? I did make Cleachdaiche:Kibi78704/Ri Dhèanamh because I have a mind likie a steel sieve: everything flows straight through it except the big stuff... and useless trivia that interests no one but me. :)
Or maybe the "Dèanta" page should be the Prìomh-Dhuilleag?
Just a heads up. I've been thinking about your new Teamplaid:gd-noun.
I agree to no longer use Teamplaid:g, but it is not a high priority for me to go change the existing instances, nor do I have a problem with Teamplaid:g. If I touch a page that contains one, I will change it, but I have too many other projects with higher priority to go chase it down. I am not getting my own work done because I have been endlessly cleaning up and updating existing articles, as well as trying to maintain the site. There are just too many articles now for me to continue cleaning up and upgrading as I have been, and I don't currently have the bandwidth to learn how to write bots at the moment. It will get done, but not immediately. Same with [[tha|Tha]]; I'll get to it as I can. OK? Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 02:13, 30 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)
No rush. Relax, have fun.
Thanks. I think I have been becoming my grandmother, a perfectionist. I need to lower my expectations to something more humanly possible. :)


If you go to Na roghainnean agam and opt for Coltas you can tick off: Seall na roinnean-seòrsa falaichte under Roghainnean adhartach and see the hidden categories. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 17:47, 30 dhen Mhàrt 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try it after class tomorrow. 05:32, 2 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)


I've mostly been listening (again and again) to Speaking our language or/and to some of the full programs on youtube, but I could do with more. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 15:40, 2 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)


Actually I can think of a pretty valid reason why the bot is doing that: on all the other wiktis the templates do not exist and that will probably give a problem interwiki linking them... Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 03:04, 4 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

So we sacrifice the maintainability of our wikt for the sake of interwiki links? Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:04, 4 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

'S toigh leam..[deasaich]

..This function duplicates the behavior of Tagalog, including all of its quirks.. Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 04:15, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

BTW - we are admins now. :) Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:23, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
I bet I know what you are describing, though I've no idea of the specific location. There are two templates: {{tl}} and {{Tl}}. The first is a country code, and the second is used in template documention. If you change the case of the template, it will probably work as originally intended.Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:27, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
I just thought it was hilarious, although the speakers of Tagalog might not agree.. It was in the string module story somewhereGunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 04:32, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
It should be fixed now. IDK, the Tagalog people might have terrific senses of humour? :D Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 04:36, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
Chan eil fhìos agam idir. Never met one.
Oh, I have started a template for verb forms, {{-riochd-}} that I intend to extend to nouns adj whathaveyou. I have long been unsure whether the right term is cruth or riochd but one of the more linguistic glossaries seems to be adamant it was riochd.

Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 04:43, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Nice. :) 04:46, 7 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)


Hi, Kibi78704. The template looks good; thanks. The second form (in the second line) of the months is of the original Volapük, before its revision by Arie de Jong ("obsolete"). It's ok the way you've done it but if you'd like to mark is somehow be my guest. Malafaya (an deasbaireachd) 21:01, 12 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Ah, because in prilul, in the definition, the reference to An Giblean is with lowercase "an", the link is broken/red. How is it supposed to be? Malafaya (an deasbaireachd) 21:07, 12 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Malafaya I fixed it for you, but here is the trick: use something like [[An Giblean|an Giblean]]. That way, the actual link is the first part, but the displayed text is in the right side of "|". I hope this helps. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 21:12, 12 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
My doubt was if the "An" part was supposed to be upper or lowercase. The way you corrected it seems confusing because it looks like it should be uppercase (the linked page is uppercased "An") but then it's lowercase mid-sentence. Malafaya (an deasbaireachd) 21:16, 12 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
This is how links work on all wikis using the same code base. See w:en:Help:Link and m:Help:Link. Best wishes! Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 21:28, 12 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Iarrtas airson fuaimneachadh[deasaich]

Hi. What is "Iarrtas airson fuaimneachadh"? Countries? Thanks, Malafaya (an deasbaireachd) 12:49, 16 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Malafaya. It means "Request for Pronunciation" and is asking for an IPA (AEF in Gaelic) for the word.
There is another one, "Iarrtas airson faidhle-fuaime" which is "Request for sound file" asking for a recording of the word.
Then "Iarrtas airson bunachas"/"Request for etymology".
So, my Gaelic is not yet good enough to write etymologies yet, even if I can see them in other places. Both Gunmhoine and I are just learning Gaelic. I put the requests for etymology/sound/pronunciation as placemarkers for later when we find what we need or learn how to translate it.
There is a good online Gaelic/English dictionary at Maybe this will help?
BTW (By the way) - I think I did not understand your question about the link the other day. It was about a month name, [[An Giblean|an Giblean]]. Did I answer the question or did I confuse you more?
Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 14:05, 16 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)
No, actually you didn't answer it :). I already saw many discussions regarding whether "an" should be part of the term or excluded. But in this case I was asking specifically whether it should be in uppercase (just the "An" part). Malafaya (an deasbaireachd) 09:15, 30 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

So now I am confused[deasaich]

I saw you put a space in E-t: A'whatever, but most of the other E-t:other do not have that. What would you prefer? With or without space after the colon? Gunmhoine (an deasbaireachd) 17:55, 19 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

It was probably a typo. I'll fix it. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 17:57, 19 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Names of Wikimedia Languages[deasaich]

Dear Kibi78704,

we are initiating a long needed action - we would like to translate names of all Wikimedia languages to all Wikimedia languages in the next two months. We have noticed that you are very active on Wiktionary and that is the reason why we are taking liberty to contact you.

We hope that you would be interesting to help us in our endeavor - To make this action easier we have already prepared the list of all Wikimedia languages, and for each language we have already prepared the page with existing and missing translations. So when you go to the page for your language you would have two tasks - to check whether existing translations are OK and to fill in the missing one. The more detailed instruction are on the language page.

What are the benefits of this work?

  • We believe it is about time to have all Wikimedia languages translated to all Wikimedia languages :)
  • Translated languages will be parsed into Wiktionary and the resulting number of Wiktionary entries will be significant for each language. That could significantly increase the number of entries for less developed Wiktionaries, and improve the quality of entries in general.
  • Wikidata - this would be great contribution to Wikidata.
  • All other projects could benefit from this list (Wiki Travel :)), as we believe that certain amount of terms has to be properly translated to all languages.

We are gathered around the project Wiktionary Meets Matica Srpska and we hope that you would be interesting in working with us! If you have any questions you can ask them on the Names of Wikimedia languages discussion page or via personal emails.

Important notice: The data are licensed under CC0, as they should be incorporated into Wikidata at the end of the process.

If you don’t want to receive future announcement about the project, please leave a note on discussion page.

Thank you and looking forward to hear from you! team

Godzzzilica (an deasbaireachd) 13:18, 29 dhen Ghiblean 2015 (UTC)

Your temporary access has expired[deasaich]

Hello, the temporary access you requested on this wiki has expired. Just to let you know that If you want it back, feel free to make a local announcement and open a new request on stewards' permission request page on Meta-Wiki later. Moreover, if you think the community is big enough to elect a permanent administrator, you can place a local request here for a permanent adminship, so stewards can grant you the permanent access. Please ask me or any other steward if you have any questions. Thank you! Stryn (an deasbaireachd) 17:25, 6 dhen Dàmhair 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Stryn. I haven't been working on Uiclair for a while now, so the expiration is not a bad thing. At present, I believe the community is size zero. Perhaps I will be able to return to it, but I'm working ont other projects atm. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 19:23, 6 dhen Dàmhair 2015 (UTC)

Uiclair: gd.wiktionary[deasaich]

Catrìona, a charaid, Akerbeltz sent me.

About three years ago, one other person and I were working on Uiclair despite both being novice Gàidhlig speakers. We were working to "templatize" the site and make it "easier" for non-native speakers to create definitions in their native languages. Life happened, and we left the project. I'm back at it now, documenting the templates and thinking about making a tutorial eventually.

Here's the thing: my Gaelic vocabulary is still tiny, and I'm better at reading it than writing it. I just sent Akerbeltz an email asking for help on technical terms. He had many great ideas, and one of them was contacting you to see if you had any time to proofread things like category names. He said he thought you had a background in programming, and might be interested in what we did, especially with ISO 639 language codes.

Anyway, I'm extending a hand. Let me know if you are curious. You can best find me at gd.wiktionary, or just ping me. Kibi78704 (talk) 17:04, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kibi, thanks for your message. I may or not be able to help. As you can see, I haven't done anything on Uiclair or even much work at English Wiktionary, but one thing I did notice is that many of the translations into Gaelic and pronunciations are incorrect. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do here, but as Akerbeltz probably told you, there's a lot of stubs on the Gaelic Wikipedia that could be migrated. Please post here and ping me so that I don't miss your message! Catrìona (an deasbaireachd) 18:28, 17 dhen Iuchar 2018 (UTC)
Teamplaid:ping Hi Catrìona. Just so I am following, are the Gàidhlig pronunciations & definitions in Uiclair incorrect, or the pronunciations & definitions in entries for other languages incorrect? We didn't touch the existing Gaelic entries for the most part because we weren't native speakers; any help there would be greatly appreciated.
Gunmhoine and I were setting it up so that definitions in other languages could be written against the Gaelic using templates with standardized spellings of Gaelic terms (such as genitive noun phrases). See for a list of languages that Gunmhoine wrote, though I did add some English and other language entries.
If anyone wants to write Gaelic definitions, I'd be thrilled!
Akerbeltz didn't mention the stubs. If someone wants to migrate them, I've no objection - but I'm not sure where they'd go at the moment. They might have to be converted into our template format mostly so they could be properly categorized - don't know when\if I could get to that, not any time soon.
I myself am working on documenting templates rather than writing definition entries. Here's a few examples: Teamplaid:=C=, Teamplaid:en, Teamplaid:ar. An offshoot of this project is that I'm adding metadata to the language templates. See Cleachdaiche:Kibi78704/earr-ràdhan/cànain. Its a table of the metadata that I've added and still need to add.
I'm also working on commenting a sample definition. See the Edit page on one.
BTW - I'm not currently an admin, so I have very limited capabilities. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 19:04, 17 dhen Iuchar 2018 (UTC)

I apologize for being unclear, those were problems that I noticed on the English wiktionary. As for the Gaelic stubs, a user on the Gaelic Wikipedia (MacRusgail) made thousands of onesentence stubs (here is an example) that do not conform to Wikipedia policy, ie no citations, only one sentence definition without context, etc. MacRusgail is a native speaker, although sometimes the spelling needs to be cleaned up. Migrating the articles was considered at Uicipeid but they decided against it (I don't remember why). I suggest that you bring it up at Doras na Coimhearsnachd ; it would greatly add to Uiclair's Gaelic-to-Gaelic entries. I'm not sure how good your Gaelic is, but you might be able to mine definitions off of non-stub entries too. I'm willing to check though my Gaelic is far from perfect. Catrìona (an deasbaireachd) 19:31, 17 dhen Iuchar 2018 (UTC)

Teamplaid:reply to Ah, no worries. I'm glad it wasn't Uiclair that had the slough of bad Gaelic entries! We have plenty of other issues here: poor translations and pronunciations would just ice the cake.
I think I need to clean up the place first and then petition for the stubs. As it is now, only Gunmhoine and I know what's what, and he's not here any longer.
My gaelic. I'd classify myself as either an advanced-beginner or a novice-intermediate: I understand more than I can speak or write. I'm trying to increase my vocabulary, which is why I'm working here.
I seem to remember the Great Stub Debate - I think it was mid to late 2015. I'll talk to Akerbeltz to get his take on it the idea of migrating them over here; he's the only one I know anymore over in Uicipeid. Kibi78704 (an deasbaireachd) 23:22, 17 dhen Iuchar 2018 (UTC)
  1. taic